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Post by Elimnyama on Feb 5, 2008 18:15:34 GMT -5
Effective, direct criticism is always wanted and expected from Sunrise players. You don't need to be the most active and contributing member of a community to still deserve a say in what goes on. We understand that some folks just don't have much time to devote to RP. We understand that some folks, like Pallu, prefer to stay in the periphery. We understand that breaking into a MUCK with all its unique dynamics is intimidating to lots of people. That doesn't mean these people don't GET opinions. We fully believe that we are doing the best we can with this plot. It's not perfect (dur! show me a plot that is! ) nor did we expect it to please everyone unanimously. And if the players want them - actually ACTIVELY want them - then changes will be made to the plot. It's only "the staff's plot" just now, but we can make it the plot of the players very easily. My point is simply this: everyone SHOULD have an opinion! If you want changes and you have intentions of RPing once the plot is hammered out the way you want it (as opposed to just ranting on the forums) -- then we WILL make those changes. We will be HAPPY to. Whatever gets you guys RPing! But you can't just sit there and point out the plot's faults without being willing to contribute your own ideas. Safiye -- I really do appreciate the fact that you are doing this. Suggestions for improvement are much, much more helpful than simply stating what you don't like. It is my personal hope that you will take your strong views on what players want and put them into practice. The staff would be really, really pleased to hear TP ideas from you.
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Post by Camrath on Feb 5, 2008 18:42:12 GMT -5
Elim, in my own case I think the problem is not so much with the plotline in and of itself, as with it being presented completely as a fait accompli. It really does give a feeling of 'Right, this is how things are going to happen, anything any preexisting PCs do is unimportant, there is no way for you to 'star' in this.'
Before I continue this post, I should add that I've not got any particular axe to grind with anyone here, I'm just giving advice from outside of the normal group of heads here.
Sunrise is (and this is a sad fact) cursed at the moment with a pretty abominable reputation as far as 'people in the know' go. The TLK/african based RP community is pretty small as it is, with nowhere like the number of players of years gone by. Sunrise though has shrunken out of proportion to that; and if I may expound here, I think the reactions to this plot (from both staff and players) is sort of the reason why.
We have a tiny playerbase now. Most of the characters connected at any given time are multiple alts of the same people, and the staff-members are (myself aside) the people who are on most at any given time. At various times complaints have been raised (and I'll admit, not least by myself in years gone by) of the same clique of players taking the leadership posts over and over again. First off, I know for a /fact/ that this issue has been dealt with, at least as far as I'm aware. So this is not a pregnant dog on that subject.
However, the impression from outside is that the staff here operate in something of an echo-chamber, running with what sounds good to them without consultation or indeed perhaps knowledge of what the people outside of said circle need or want for their game. The impression that I've been getting from players past and present that I'm in contact with outside of Sunrise is that somewhere along the track the path got lost- that now the staff are running the game in accordance with what they /think/ the players want rather than what the players /actually/ want; and without acceptance of outside input.
Now, first of all, please do NOT take this as a direct attack on anyone. Or indeed an attack at all. I've spent a great many happy hours on Sunrise (and admittedly some less cheerful ones, but hey), and even now, this late in the day, I want to see OUR game succeed.
What can help in that, though?
Now that's the hard part. Player apathy is a concern, yes- hell, there are so few of us actual players left out there that I think sometimes we're outnumbered by those on the staff. I digress, however. The biggest turnoff for many a newbie or for bringing people over is feeling like what they do /doesn't matter/. That they'll never be able to advance their characters because of a lack of connections, of friendships in high places, that sort of thing. And that they'll be locked out of things.
To be honest, the way this plot looks on its current presentation suggests very much that second problem; everything is written, if you're an established character or a newbie not playing one of the plotchars you'll be stuck on the periphery, all that sort of thing. Now, I don't know exactly how you're all planning to carry this off, so I couldn't say if that impression is true or not. But the reactions of certain members of staff to dissenting voices is disquieting in the very least.
Just because people disagree with how you're doing something or an idea that you've formed amongst yourselves, it does NOT mean a personal attack or an attack on the game. And blowing up at people, throwing snide comments at the people who the staff are there to SERVE- that's only going to guarantee that our reputation sinks lower yet amongst our already small community.
Note, I said 'our' reputation. Because we are a collaborative group, and a game like this is nothing without its playerbase. This hard-written plot however steps on the 'collaborative' part of that. Instead of creating our own stories, forging our own plot (with perhaps some set plotpoints- if 'X' happens then 'Y' will result and so on), instead we're stuck into just being bitplayers in someone else's scheme.
To use an extremely geeky simile, it's as if we're suddenly playing a Final Fantasy game rather than the freeform tabletop experience that MU* gaming is meant to replicate. And it's not exactly a pleasant switch to contemplate.
Jesus. This has turned into far more of a 'state of the nation' post than direct commentary on the issue at hand, but I feel that as opinions are invited, I should offer my own.
I will ask all of you however- particularly the more hottempered ones who might take criticism as attack to bear this in mind. I've played on Sunrise for what.. four or five years now. Despite being extremely offended, hurt, angered and in some cases feeling out and out betrayed by the action of various past members of staff or the playerbase, I've kept coming back. Why? Because in spite of its faults, its problems, its reputation I also happen to love the story we have created here together, and I want to do everything within my power to help that story grow in way that /won't/ eventually lead to six or seven players roleplaying with each other on dozens of alts, but instead lead to a proper restoration of the place to its glory days.
It's nearly midnight here, but I'll try and put my thoughts in order and put together more active suggestions tomorrow evening.
Just remember, for those of you on the staff (because some of you seem to lose track of this); you run the game for the players and in an ideal world, how they want it. If this doesn't dovetail with your own vision, then if you want the game to continue without losing more folk then the side that needs to give ground is the side who has their hands on the reins.
Anyway. Polemic over.
I love Sunrise. I'm not quitting Sunrise. But does Sunrise need a shakeup to be all it can be? I believe so. I'll post more tomorrow.
Edit: Oh dear god, can we PLEASE lower the level of the word-filters? 'A pregnant dog on that subject', I ask you. Reads like I'm on acid. ;P
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Post by Elimnyama on Feb 5, 2008 20:32:12 GMT -5
So. This is a thread about the upcoming Kivuli TP. My last post was asking for folks' contributions to the plot.
If you have a problem with the way that the staff is running the game, please feel free to take it up with us personally. There's no reason to bring it into a thread meant for generating plots and RP. Seriously, talk to us. We listen. We're not tyrants. But we're also not your servants. We're just guides, and in our position I know you'd be doing your best, just like we are.
It seems that there has been plenty of interest in this idea so far, so let's please try and get back to that. We're just trying to get an actual plot going here.
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Kiara
Cub
and where the journey may lead me
Posts: 31
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Post by Kiara on Feb 5, 2008 21:05:45 GMT -5
I don't know about anyone else, but I think this idea is awesome and I'm thinking of joining in.
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Ewali
Juvenile
King of the Past
Posts: 109
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Post by Ewali on Feb 6, 2008 6:22:02 GMT -5
I don't know if my opinion matters, but I think this plot idea sounds really good. Who says it has to be set in stone? Things can change along the way, if the players come up with new ideas. I read this as simply an outline, with the only thing being definite that Mizuka/Kivuli will prevail in the end. I remember a TP from many many years ago, when hostile lions took over Kivuli and sent Ewali and all the male youngsters fleeing. Now it was definite that Ewali would get his lands back, but lots of interesting situations spawned from that TP, among them the heiress Samawati being kidnapped and impregnated, which wasn't preplanned at all.
So yeah. If I still had the time, I'd totally want to join in on this. Whatever else you guys have to say about the staff, THEY have kept the place alive for all this time. Without their devotion, there wouldn't be a Sunrise. Of course criticism is a necessary and good thing, but I can see how it gets frustrating when they're constantly expected to come up with things with no input from others. No one's stopping you "commoners" from coming up with ideas of your own. Srsly. Go post up some TP ideas of your own.
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Post by Msasi on Feb 6, 2008 13:02:48 GMT -5
Thank you for the input all around, everyone.
To those of you wanting to join in/planning on joining in, feel free to either leave a note here as to what character/sort of character you're wanting to play.. or contact Mizuka/Shomoro on the MUCK (or any of the other staff, and they can pass on the message). Best to hold off contacting me for a few days, as I'm having to make an unexpected trip and won't be checking the MUCK or forum. n_n;
As a side note, there will be a couple brainstorming meetings for plots for Tyne and Asasabonsam (and other general plots.. whatever. It's brainstorming fun!). Hopefully one of these meetings will be tonight before I have to leave. So here's your chance to come share any ideas you have! Maybe we'll even get the log of that posted here to the forum for everyone unable to make it to be able to comment and offer ideas. Sound goodgood?
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Post by Arazia on Feb 6, 2008 13:18:07 GMT -5
I sent my mail to Mizuka yesterday. Now I just wait. Yup.
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Post by Elimnyama on Feb 7, 2008 13:44:41 GMT -5
To help this along, I'm planning to make a young lioness char to be in the Queen's entourage. She's been tentatively named A'isha, but that could change if I think of something better. Whee!
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Post by lutalo on Feb 7, 2008 14:09:28 GMT -5
I figure I'll put Sekhmet into the Queen's entourage as well. Perhaps she can be from that pride and meet up with them again along the way. n.n
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Post by Arazia on Feb 7, 2008 16:30:47 GMT -5
I've signed on to play either second or third born in Mizuka's litter. I think I'll go for a boy cub, since the name I came up with seems to fit a boy in my mind. No set ideas yet until I find out what 'Queenie' will look like, but I picked the name Rogawani. Which... if you stretch swahili and your imagination means something like 'I become enchanted'.
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Post by Tilyn on Feb 11, 2008 20:01:57 GMT -5
I'm hoping of finding a mate for Atreyu out of the Queens court. So whomever is gunna play one of the lionesses, if your interested throw me a line. n_n
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Post by Msasi on Feb 11, 2008 21:09:26 GMT -5
I believe we currently have players for.. a member or two for Queenie's court, the doomed cub, another Miz/Queenie cub and Queenie herself. So the only character left that we NEED in order to start.. is Main Bodyguard! Anyone interested in him, please let us know! Also, if you're interested in playing a character in any other role.. guard/court/Kivulian/Miz+Queenie cub/Queenie+Main Bodyguard cub/etc.. just drop us a line and let us know.
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Post by Camrath on Feb 19, 2008 16:22:58 GMT -5
I believe we currently have players for.. a member or two for Queenie's court, the doomed cub, another Miz/Queenie cub and Queenie herself. So the only character left that we NEED in order to start.. is Main Bodyguard! Anyone interested in him, please let us know! Also, if you're interested in playing a character in any other role.. guard/court/Kivulian/Miz+Queenie cub/Queenie+Main Bodyguard cub/etc.. just drop us a line and let us know. Obviously, Camrath will be hanging around doing his 'Old, hard as freaking nails, cynical and somewhat bitter knight' thing with regards the Kivulian side of things; do I need to drop a line to get in on this, or can that just be taken as a given?
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Post by Msasi on Feb 19, 2008 17:17:23 GMT -5
To participate, all current Kivulians need to send in proof of citizenship, a signed note from the King and a check/money order/credit card payment/cash in the amount of $1,000,000,000 to: Msasi the Lioness 12345 N. Tyne Blvd. Savanna, Africa 99887
Uh. I mean. Nah, no need to drop a line. Consider it a given. ;D
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Tasa
Infant
Posts: 19
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Post by Tasa on Feb 20, 2008 3:18:30 GMT -5
Alright, I know I haven't been around and am not even part of this, but as a person who writes about lions and whatnot, I feel I should say something about this. So, ya'll (sorry, don't mean to sound southern, random moment ya know! XD) here's my opinion on this: Safyie, like all of us here, you're entitled to speak your mind but it was a little rough. This is Shomoro's plan for Kivuli, considering the current king, Mizuka, is in fact her character (If I'm not mistaken) so, I feel that it was needed for her to spell out the plot the way she did. Yes, it's true along the way, things can and may change, like Atreyu, taking a mate from Queenie's court. (I'd kinda like to see that myself... he's such a sweetheart^^) And yes, she's decided the ending, hence, Kivuli must win... Hey! It's the last kingdom, other than Tyne, that's been standing for seven generations (Who knew! XD) Basically what Shomoro has done is summarize what should be in the plan, it's like spelling out a story before you write to prevent any blockage (I know, I've done it, still am) I feel that this plot will attract players, from the past, (those who are around) and even future ones. I'd join in this myself but being a writer... Never mind, I won't go into that. As Msasi said, this is an experiment and a wonderful one at that. I'm impressed and in a very good way. Constructive critisicm is okay once in a while but not when it sort of hurts the time and effort a person deals with to create a plot like this. For the end, yes Kivuli will rise again and yes Mizuka will live but is there a chance the heir can live as well or will someone have to be sacrificed. Even if the heir to Mizuka's throne does die, (should Queenie have more cubs, which she very well may I mean this is still in planning right?) another one of the cubs can be trained and take over. Or, by a miracle, the cub can survive. Plots change all the time, it's normal and it makes either the RP or the story flow easier. There's always going to be something to change and change is good. Orgainizing the plot like this is a good idea. It gives the players a chance to see what they're working with and they can add anything that comes to mind to make all the better, the more fun, intense, emotional and exciting. I'd join in this if I had the time, but sadly I don't. However, just by checking in, you've given me a great idea for a inspired plot for one of my future stories so I thank you for that and I look forward to seeing this RP in action! So, this is Tasa, saying, 'Take care one and all' *bows and departs*
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